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Opinion: 'Complete Streets' Must be a Top City Priority

City Transportation Commission Chairman Kevin Posey says the Complete Streets initiative must be treated as a top priority and never as an afterthought.

When the Transportation Commission meets in December, it will be my last as its Chairman. I am pleased to say that our Commission made progress in moving Alexandria down the path to sustainable transportation policies. The most important of these was the City’s Complete Streets policy, which we originated. It also happens to be our biggest piece of unfinished business.

The Complete Streets policy calls for ALL users to be accommodated whenever a project is considered. If a new street is built or an old one repaved, the City’s Department of Transportation and Environmental Services must look into making it usable for pedestrians, cyclists, and transit, rather than just cars. The idea is to make streets safe for something other than a Hummer.

Why is this so important? Ask citizens of this City to name the important issues and most of will start off with these two: 1. Education; and 2. Traffic Calming. Both are linked to Alexandria’s kids, who are every family’s top priority. Better schools address the former; the Complete Streets policy can help with the latter.

But what of the raised voices over development projects that consumed entire forests of newspaper and days of public hearings? Clearly, voters sent an unambiguous signal that such debates weren’t their top priority, for they failed to support candidates who based entire campaigns on them. Indeed, elections are the ultimate form of public outreach, as they show whose opinion has broad support and whose opinion is merely loud.

What must happen now is for another unambiguous signal to be sent, but this one should go from the Mayor and Council to City staff. Complete Streets must be put on a higher priority, and never be treated as an afterthought. When a street is repaved, don’t automatically re-stripe it just as it was. Check to see where bike lanes can be added to calm traffic and protect cyclists. Look for crosswalks where ramps for the disabled need to be installed. Fill the gaps in sidewalks so our kids don’t have to walk in the street to reach the schoolbus stop. To do otherwise is to invite tragedy, and nobody will be impressed by fixes made after it’s too late.

Kevin H. Posey, Chairman
Alexandria Transportation Commission

Michael Smith November 19, 2012 at 05:23 am
The responses to my comments are idiotic. They don;'t even connect to the content of my remarks. these people can't read...
This culture is blind to alternatives. This culture thinks its doing THE CYCLISTS a favor!!! HA HA HA HA..im already out of the car. Im not fat. I dont waste time or money. Im highly educated. etc etc. My life is already aesthetically rich you morons...I dont care what you do...although...let me guess: lets perpetuate a failed structure that requires subsidy to exists and function. Please, do tell, what books and research do you have to back ANY of your tired, ignorant claims? And what comparative cases can you offer?... Typical Americans: talking out of their ass...
billdsd November 19, 2012 at 07:34 am
What's dangerous about riding in sharrows? It makes bicyclists highly visible and makes it clear to drivers that they need to change lanes to pass.
Slow traffic moving at a consistent speed does not typically get hit from behind. Rear end collisions are caused by overtaking traffic following too close and the overtaken traffic doing something that overtaking driver's do not anticipate, like suddenly slowing down. People who say that sharrows don't work are people who don't understand how rear end collisions happen in the real world.
Gail November 19, 2012 at 12:08 pm
Michael, your attitude isn't helping your cause at all. Can you suggest an alternative to the car for people with children, people with mobility issues, people whose jobs require them to be dressed in a certain way that is not conducive to cycling, people who need to carry briefcases, laptops, etc.?
McBrinn November 19, 2012 at 01:21 pm
Gail- I take exception to almost all of your points in your first post.Have you ever lived overseas? Amsterdam, Munich, Berlin, Copenhagen and many other cities across the pond have the majority of it's professionals commuting by means other than car- usually by bicycle.Unless you're grossly overweight or ridiculously unfit, riding a bike for 10 miles shouldn't even cause one to break a sweat.
As for inclement weather, well, there's gear for that. a rain coat, some decent fenders and a simple hat go a long way. A huge portion of Portland Oregon (not known for it's nice weather) has found a way to commute by bike. In fact, even with the near-constant rain, Portland has managed to decrease vehicular traffic. As for Alexandria screwing the pooch on development issues, what else is new?
Gail November 19, 2012 at 02:27 pm
I want to be on the side of cyclists, but no one has addressed the issue of commuting with children. Women have other issues as well. Portland is a more casual city than DC and European cities are much more compact. Riding along the roads in DC while wearing suits isn't practial for most people. I'd love to bike to work, but it just won't work for me on most days for several reasons. I can say anecdotally that the people I see cycling to work and bringing bikes into my office building are younger men in casual dress.
Justin Wilson November 19, 2012 at 02:39 pm
Gail: It's not for everyone, but I bike to work at Union Station DC 3-4 days a week from March to late November--and my two kids are part of the deal.
I'm fortunate to have a health-club on the first floor of my building, and a bike rack in the garage under my building, so I'm able to shower and change when I get here. As for the kids, I leave the house with my 7 year old riding his bike behind me, and my 5 year old in the bike trailer attached to my bike. We ride up to my son's school, and I drop him off (chaining his bike to the bike rack at school). We then continue to my daughter's pre-school and I drop her off. I then double-back home and leave the bike trailer in our garage, and then hit the trail by myself to get to the office. A few years ago, when both my kids were at a pre-school in Old Town, I used to cart them up there, leave the bike trailer at their pre-school, and then hit the trail for DC to go to to work. Again, it's not for everyone, but it's doable.
Gail November 19, 2012 at 02:51 pm
I wince everytime I see one of those kid trailers on a bike on a busy street. Accidents happen. People around here drive like maniacs, not mention DUIs, etc. I couldn't do it.
AHP November 19, 2012 at 04:18 pm
Gail - my son rides to his preschool several days a week in a bike safety seat on the back of my bike. We take a dedicated bike lane almost the entire route. The key to doing this safely is to ride a predictable and visible route along the bike lane or the sharrows and observing the same rules of the road as motorists.
After I drop him off, I ride to the metro and take the metro to work. No special biking clothes and usually not casual clothes. I've done this in a suit. It works fine. One thing I do avoid is biking with him at dark. But onto your two concerns and how more intelligent traffic planning could address those two concerns. First, bikes and bikes with kids makes you wince (I'm glad you are concerned about biker safety). More bike lanes, sharrows, and signage will encourage more consistent and predictable cyclist behavior and make cyclists more visible to motorists, thus lowering the risk of accidents. Second, you are concerned that not everyone can bike. That's fine - "Complete Streets" doesn't contemplate a biker utopia where everyone must bike and ditch the car (sorry Michael and McBrinn, keep on dreaming). Rather it advocates an inclusive approach that addresses the needs not just or motorists but of motorists, cyclists, pedestrians, and bus commuters, etc.
billdsd November 19, 2012 at 06:15 pm
It is possible to make the risk of a collision very low.
Unfortunately, most people are very bad at risk assessment and this is a prime example. Saying "accidents happen" is silly. Accidents happen for a variety of reasons but most of them are avoidable. http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/usa/index.htm http://www.youtube.com/user/CyclistLorax http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/animations/ http://cyclingsavvy.org http://www.bikeed.org http://www.bikeleague.org/programs/education/courses.php#101 Effective Cycling by John Forester, ISBN 0262560704 Cyclecraft by John Franklin, ISBN 0117064769
Gail November 19, 2012 at 07:09 pm
billdsd, you state that accidents are avoidable. That may be true, but they happen anyway. You can take every precaution, but you can't rely on everyone else to do the same. It's simple physics - in a collision between a car and bike, the car will always win. No matter who is at fault, the cyclist will almost always be the one to suffer the more serious injuries. You may think it's silly to say "accidents happen" but I think it's silly to think that they won't. I saw a car/bike collision in Philadelphia this September. Yes, it was the car driver's fault, but guess who walked away and who didn't?
billdsd November 19, 2012 at 07:14 pm
If you get hit by a meteor, you will die. It's simply physics.
Seriously, that's your argument. This is about risk assessment, a concept which you don't seem to be able to grasp. You are assessing risk using the "affect heuristic" which is inherently flawed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affect_heuristic When you take proper precautions, the risk is extremely low, like the risk of getting hit by a meteor.
Gail November 19, 2012 at 07:32 pm
Bill, maybe you're the one assessing rish using the affect heuristic. "If one’s feelings towards an activity is positive, then people are more likely to judge the risks as low and the benefits high...". I actually like cycling, so I don't think I'm assessing the risks as too high. It's just that the risks, when coupled with the impracticalities, make a car the better choice for me personally. The risk may be statistically low, but it's still a helluva lot higher than getting hit by a meteor.
billdsd November 19, 2012 at 11:55 pm
Back in reality, I've had bicycle safety training, read all of the major bicycle safety books and read a couple of dozen or so bicycle safety studies so I actually know the statistics and I know the techniques to be safe.
You're just guessing. I actually know.
McBrinn November 20, 2012 at 01:03 am
What the hell is bicycle safety training? Did you actually spend money to enroll in a course that tells you it's a good idea to use a helmet, wear reflective clothing, obey traffic laws, and use a head lamp?
If you couldn't figure that out on your own I'm pretty sure you have no business being on the roads.
billdsd November 20, 2012 at 01:19 am
There is so much more to it than that. You don't have any idea how little you know.
http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/animations/ http://cyclingsavvy.org http://www.bikeed.org http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/usa/index.htm http://www.youtube.com/user/CyclistLorax http://www.bikeleague.org/programs/education/courses.php#101 Effective Cycling by John Forester, ISBN 0262560704 Cyclecraft by John Franklin, ISBN 0117064769
billdsd November 20, 2012 at 01:35 am
BTW, that's just for starters. There's even more for people who want to get more advanced.
OT insider November 20, 2012 at 02:05 am
Wow, so much anger. Hope you can talk this out with your therapist man.
McBrinn November 20, 2012 at 02:10 am
Your first three links were a long-winded, half-assed, recap of what I'd just stated above.
So, no. I know exactly what I'm talking about. If you want to elaborate rather than link to things repeating what I've just stated, than feel free. Otherwise, throw some more reflectors on.
billdsd November 20, 2012 at 02:15 am
You really don't know what you are talking about.
You need to understand all sorts of crossing conflicts, screening risks and ways to avoid them including proper lane positioning (far right is usually not safe).
Jonathan Krall November 20, 2012 at 05:10 am
I just want to chime in on the value of bicycle training. WABA (www.waba.org) offers classes on Confident City Cycling, covering such things as lane positioning for visibility and for getting safely through intersections, maneuvering around obstacles, emergency turns and stops, how to do a quick check of a bicycle, etc. Studies show a strong correlation between crashes and unsafe riding, such as riding against the flow of traffic or riding at night without lights. I know taking a class takes time and is not the quick fix of "wear a helmet," but a helmet is only useful when a crash occurs.
As for the anger, I don't think it is always constructive, but I certainly understand it. In Alexandria we are told, again and again, that we want people to drive less and ride more. Yet, when it is clearly time to put those words into action, as with the striping of new roads, we instead see that the bike lanes stop on the wrong side of the Alexandria city limits. After a while it feels like we are being lied to. Then we are told as in some comments, that we are somehow arrogant for wanting to be able to ride safely on the roads. If by "arrogant" you mean "scared s--tless and praying not to be hit by a car while riding on Glebe because we are in a hurry to get where we are going and the safe routes are way out of the way" then yes we are rather "arrogant." And would like to be less so.
billdsd November 20, 2012 at 05:17 am
It's also very common for bicyclists to collide with suddenly opened car doors because it's impossible to reliably see drivers in parked cars. While it's illegal to open a door into traffic without making sure it's clear first, the bicyclist still loses -- unless they are riding in the middle of the lane, well out of the way of the door so that it doesn't matter if some dimwit opens a door in front of them.
Right hooks are are also pretty common. Bicyclists who are riding in the middle of the lane almost never get right hooked. Bicyclists who ride to the far right are usually the ones who are victims of the right hook. Again, motorists are required to pass safely and right hooking a bicyclist is an illegal unsafe pass, but bicyclists can prevent it from happening in the first place. It is essentially the bicycling equivalent of defensive driving. It compensates for much of the misbehavior of others.
McBrinn November 20, 2012 at 02:57 pm
I've been commuting by bike from Del Ray to Clarendon 3/4 times a week from March until Thanksgiving for 7 years. Prior to that I lived in NYC for a decade without a car. I've logged more miles than you ever will. What I know dwarfs what you know. But feel free to link more sites if it makes you think a silly class trumps experience!
Lee Hernly November 20, 2012 at 03:46 pm
How about the bikes that blow right through stop signs and stop lights? Does WABA's confident cycling class cover that too?
billdsd November 20, 2012 at 06:02 pm
Sorry but again no. I've ridden over 30,000 miles in the last 5 years and well over 100,000 miles total. I've been riding for a long time. You really have no idea what you are talking about. Having ridden a bike doesn't make you an expert.
I had ridden around 80,000 miles before I got the training. I learned a lot and it changed my whole attitude on the road. I went from being frequently scared to almost never scared. You need to let go of your arrogance.
Jonathan Krall November 20, 2012 at 09:29 pm
Lee, If you're willing to explain to me what stop-sign running (versus, say speeding by drivers and jaywalking by walkers) has to do with the subject of Complete Streets, I'd be happy to explain why cyclists are so hesitant to come to a complete stop at stop signs.
In the meantime, I invite you to to read about how the state of Idaho adjusted traffic laws to keep the focus on safety rather than on anger (on all sides) over cyclists making rolling stops at stop signs: http://www.bicyclelaw.com/blog/index.cfm/2009/3/7/Origins-of-Idahos-Stop-as-Yield-Law
Lee Hernly November 20, 2012 at 09:55 pm
Jonathan -
My only point was when a city decides to "complete the streets," you make pedestrians, cyclists, wheelchairs, and transit users just as important as motorists. If motorists are expected to obey the law, shouldn't jaywalkers & most importantly bicyclists? In the last few weeks alone, I have seen over a dozen near misses with cars as bikes crossed through stop lights and stop signs.
Kevin H. Posey November 20, 2012 at 11:25 pm
I am seeing an argument that Complete Streets aren't worthwhile because some cyclists and pedestrians make foolish choices. That's akin to closing the interstates because some people drive badly (me, included, according to some). Humans are flawed; the question is how do we minimize the risk arising from bad behavior?
The generally accepted thinking supported by various studies is to separate transportation modes and introduce better enforcement. If you don't want pedestrians to be hit by cars, build a sidewalk. If you want to keep bikes and cars from tangling, put in a bike lane. To make sure everyone behaves, train your police officers on proper enforcement and insist they actually do it. As for whether biking or walking is used by enough people to be worth encouraging, the answer is an obvious yes. Just check out he Mount Vernon Trail during rush hour, and that heavy use is in spite of our weak feeder infrastructure. It's been observed throughout the US that building supporting infrastructure encourages use of a given mode. Alas, that is why car traffic is so bad all over: it's what transportation planners used to encourage almost exclusively. Thankfully, we've realized what a colossal mistake that was. See our polluted skies, Middle Eastern wars, and freeway-bisected neighborhoods for examples. Complete Streets is just a new label for something we should all be familiar with: common sense.
Linda Fairall November 21, 2012 at 05:48 am
I say bicyclists get stuff when they learn to FOLLOW TRAFFIC LAWS. There are signs ALL OVER OLD TOWN: Bicyclists MUST obey all traffic signs and signals. But like typical bike-snobs, they blow right through, and then get mad at drivers when we gesture and honk and yell at them. I'll share the road when they learn how ride safely and responsibly :P (sorry, GIANT pet peeve of mine. Maybe it stems from my hatred for hipsters :P)
Jonathan Krall November 21, 2012 at 04:56 pm
These comments are getting to be surreal. Do you also propose shutting down the beltway until drivers learn to stay under the speed limit? Speeding is a pet peeve mine, especially since the probability of a fatality skyrockets when the speed of a car exceeds 25 mph (40 kph): http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8062/8190486442_de7402843f_z.jpg
Let us please be sensible. Most people who ride bicycles typically also spend time walking or driving cars. And studies show that all types of road-users break the law at about the same rate for about the same reason--they are trying to get where they are going in a way the believe to be safe and affective. The difference is that speeding is considered "normal" and rolling through stop signs at speeds faster than drivers roll through stop signs is _not_ considered normal. IMO, this is another reason we need education. If bicycle safety education were more universal, then people on bicycle would ride more consistently, expectations would be more realistic, and enforcement would be more effective. Finally, I rarely see people "blow right through" stop signs. To do so is dangerous. What most people do is slow down and then proceed when they think it is safe. And, no, they don't always use great judgement. But, as Mr. Posey says in his comment above, that does not mean they should not be given safe facilities.
billdsd November 21, 2012 at 08:15 pm
@Linda Fairall: I say motorists get stuff when they learn to FOLLOW TRAFFIC LAWS. There are signs ALL OVER OLD TOWN: Motorists MUST obey all traffic signs and signals. But like typical car-snobs, they blow right through, and then get mad at cyclists when we gesture and yell at them. I'll share the road when they learn how drive safely and responsibly.
Motorists aren't any better at obeying the law than bicyclists are. You don't really care about bicyclists rolling stop signs anyway. It's just an excuse to rationalize your irrational hatred of people who are different from you and who you think shouldn't have a right to inconvenience you by existing. Seriously, grow up.

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D @ D C. June 19, 2013 at 09:29 am
Doug, Thank you!! Watching our neighborhood and speaking up helps us all. If we ignore the kidsRead More they will think we don't care and bring more trouble to our area. The only way to keep our community safe is by us all posting like Doug.
Kara Fast June 19, 2013 at 05:15 pm
Broken flower pots on 300 Block of Princess street night of 17 June too. This type of activity isRead More picking up in our neighborhood too.
Edgar Warfield June 19, 2013 at 07:09 pm
Yes, thanks Doug. Question is what will the police do about it -- likely not very much,Read More unfortunately.
Learn how to research your family history!
Drew Hansen (Editor) June 19, 2013 at 06:00 am
Where is this even being held?
Drew Hansen (Editor) June 19, 2013 at 12:36 pm
Looks like it's at the Athenaeum: http://www.nvfaa.org/events/starting-genealogy-lisa-stansbury
Bea Porter May 22, 2013 at 02:38 pm
Very well said. A new building will not bring up the test scores, and its not the fault of theRead More parents. Dr. Sherman changes staff so frequently it makes sense that the scores are not improving. Jefferson-Houston needs to have consistency in staff, and not the turnovers that it has had in the last several years. These students can achieve, they can do well, but they need to have consistent structure, and teachers that are willing to teach them in the manner they can learn best. Take these 350 students and reintegrate them into other schools that are achieving, then see them rise as the stars they are. Stop keeping them segregated, stop the under achievement. Stop this new building.
Lee Hernly May 22, 2013 at 03:21 pm
While I agree with the commenters and the writer on their comments, I do suggest that, if you haveRead More not done so already, do take a tour of the school to see the changes taking place. It's hard to see how the kids can learn anything there at the school given the current open classroom environment. Having lived here all my life, I seem to recall as well that at one point in time, Lyles Crouch was in a similar situation like Jefferson Houston currently is. Lyles Crouch has turned itself around so who's to say that Jefferson Houston won't? Dr. Sherman though, needs to go.
Foo Bar May 25, 2013 at 04:33 pm
As I remember, Lyles-Crouch did not bootstrap itself but got help from Herb Berg, the superintendentRead More before Rebecca Parry. In the '99 redistricting he rezoned Lyles-Crouch's attendance area so that a number of disadvantaged kids who formerly went there now go to Jefferson-Houston.
Jon Rosenbaum May 23, 2013 at 03:10 pm
I find myself agreeing with the writer for once. This is a quality of life and security issue.Read More Actually 60 lights were out a few months ago from the river to the Metro station. TE&S does a survey only once a year. Otherwise its Director says it is up to citizens to report lights that are out. I report light outages on my block, but it is unreasonable to expect citizens to report each light number out on a commercial street. Then there is the issue of repair time. Last fall it took three months to repair a damaged light in the 100 block of N. Saint Asaph Street.
Defy Libtards May 23, 2013 at 03:49 pm
The city is sooooooooooooo boring. Why can't we just continue with the Hippie v. ConservativeRead More bashing; it's been too long since somebody has called me a (racist) because I like small government.
Scot May 23, 2013 at 03:57 pm
Not enough anger in this op ed, please revise. Clap*Clap*Clap Also, why is everyone typing when weRead More could all be out robbing banks? Apparently it is the new cool "thing" in Alexandria.
Sherry Henderson April 30, 2013 at 02:43 pm
Gail, I would say that past elected officials have been very much to blame for the problems with theRead More Alexandria City Public School system, especially the old regime who mismanaged the administration of those schools for the past few years. One can say that they most certainly weren't 'the brightest bulbs in the box'. But the honeymoon is over for the current Alexandria School Board and the Alexandria City Council to grab the bull by the horns and work to solidly fix Alexandria City Public Schools. I understand that a very small percentage of families in Alexandria have children, as the city is geared to newlyweds or people who either don't want or can't afford to have children. Many people move out of Alexandria by the time their children reach the age to go to school because of the low scores that Alexandria City Public Schools have in comparison to great schools in both neighboring Fairfax and Arlington Counties. Getting back to your comment that there are 'entrenched administrators', they need to be publicly outed for their incompetence and sent packing. It amazes me how many elected officials boast how great it is to live in the City of Alexandria, yet they have a glaring problem with Alexandria City Public Schools and are seemingly incompetent to fix them. This isn't a political issue, but as a Democrat, I'm very embarrassed by, as I've noted, the 'good ole boy' and 'good ole girl', wink-wink, back-scratching politics that go on in Alexandria City Hall. Disgusting.
Gail April 30, 2013 at 03:31 pm
We have an almost entirely brand new school board. They were stuck with a big mess. They were onlyRead More installed four months ago. Give them some time. This won't be easy. They are hampered by budget issues right now, existing contracts, etc. These new comers are NOT part of the "ole boy/girl" network. Karen Graaf, Patricia Hennig and Bill Campbell are NOT the "old network" at all. Kelly Carmichael Booz and Chris Lewis were politically active in the city but they are also most definitely NOT part of the "old" network. Marc Williams is the leftover from those days and for reasons I don't understand, he is very popular with parents in the George Mason district where he lives. Sherman has been a disaster, but the fact is that his hiring was actually spearheaded by former school board chair Yvonne Folkerts, who is a Republican. The Dems did not create that particular monster but we were somewhat responsible for allowing the monster to eat the city. I've been screaming for his firing since 2008 and there is a nice bottle of champagne chilling in my fridge for the day he gets his walking papers.
Sherry Henderson April 30, 2013 at 04:25 pm
The Alexandria City Council, except for our great Vice Mayor, Allison Silberberg, is definitely allRead More run by the very entrenched 'good ole boy' and 'good old girl' network that has completely strangled Alexandria politics for years. Many Democrats that I know are completely turned off by our local elected officials, who, despite their good intentions, continuously embarrass us by their votes and misconstrued thoughts that they're doing something right for the future of our city. Alexandria is the true 'banana republic' of D.C. area politics, because those who, uhm, 'govern' us have a "see no evil, hear no evil, and speak no evil" mantra to themselves, especially Justin Wilson, who loves to overly pontificate as he drones on until he foams at the mouth during his lengthy dissertations that are as mindless as he is. And Justin, and the rest of the politburo that we have seated at Alexandria City Hall are hell bent to run the city any way they like. As a Democrat, I know that we can sure do better than what we've got in office now, and there are a ton of great forward-thinking progressives who would be much better than the stooges who are in Alexandria City Hall now, but the 'political elite' throws up obstacles to keep themselves in power. That in itself is very shameful, but since the City of Alexandria is so 'provincial' in its 'my way or the highway' governance, we're always doomed to inefficiency in comparison to Fairfax and Arlington Counties. We definitely deserve better.
Dan Sehnal April 24, 2013 at 06:34 pm
46 pounds per household sounds like a lot per household. It would be interesting to know where theRead More number came from and how it was computed. Although anecdotal, a quick inspection of the 26 homes on our street in old town, I would guess we are talking about 10-15 pounds per household. That's a big differential. Is business and/or industrial waste included in that number? If so, I can better understand. Thanks, D. Sehnal Quay St.
Michael Clem April 25, 2013 at 02:30 pm
The 46 pounds per household is somewhat inflated because it includes weight from Alexandria'sRead More schools and City government buildings. But the number is not that far off. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency estimates that an average household generates 1.2 tons of trash a year. That's about 46 lbs. a week. People who recycle all that they can and do not have much yard waste will generate much less. You must be one of those households. Great job!
Nate McKenzie April 30, 2013 at 05:45 pm
Michael, What is your opinion of municipal composting programs? Would a municipal compostingRead More program make sense in Alexandria (not sure of benefits when we are already incinerating)? Can municipal composting be cost effective for us? Thanks, Nate